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Brooklyn trio Nation of Language have been busy. The new-wave, post-punk, shoegaze (but make it modern and fresher than anything you’ve heard of late) just signed to Sub Pop and dropped a new single “Inept Apollo,” all while touring their critically acclaimed album Strange Disciple. When we meet up with them in the artist lounge of Salt Lake City’s Kilby Festival, they seem pretty chill about the whole thing, despite their latest single’s themes of self-questioning and feeling like an impostor while making art.

Ian Richard Devaney (lead vocals, guitar), Aidan Noell (synthesizer) and Alex MacKay (bass guitar) draw a massive crowd during their Kilby set on the festival’s Mountain Stage, which puts them in the center of a stadium. PAPER ran to catch their glittering synth-ballad “Weak In Your Light,” tripping over other fans with smiles spread across their faces. It was worth it.

Below, the band talks about the future, what they love about the Utah festival’s line-up and what we can expect from them next.

You just dropped “Inept Apollo” can you tell us about the song’s inspiration?

Ian Richard Devaney: It’s sort of a song about when you’re pouring yourself into your work to get over loss or sadness, but you feel imposter syndrome about the work that you’re doing. So you’re like, “I guess I should just keep going,” but you’re like “Should I be the one doing this?” and the never-ending self-talk that goes through your head.

How has it been touring Strange Disciple? Do the original meanings of song’s shift as you’ve played them live?

Ian: It’s been so much fun touring Strange Disciple, our last record, these past two years. I have really started to feel the way the songs really do evolve the more times you play them. When you record it, you feel a certain way. And then life happens to you and there are all these lines in it that jump out at you in different ways. It’s really remarkable. Honestly, one of my favorite things about touring as relentlessly as we tried to tour was watching the songs from all the albums evolve over time.

Aidan Noell: Definitely. I think sometimes you only realize certain things about certain songs after playing them live for a while. Sometimes, you’re like, “Oh that song! I always thought of it as a mellow song but people are dancing to it,” or it’s a lot faster than I realized and sometimes those realizations only come when it meets an audience. So it’s nice to have a couple years to do that and see what comes back to you.

I saw that you posted that you were excited about the festival’s lineup. Who are you excited to see this weekend?

Alex MacKay: .A few of the bands that we wanted to see, Pains of Being Pure at Heart was one and we just watched them and they’re amazing, as we hoped. We missed Devo and New Order, but we saw them at another festival and I’ve heard that their sets were incredible. And it’s just so awesome to be on the same lineup as such legends like that.

Ian: For me, Yo La Tengo is probably my favorite band. So to be on the same festival as them is really sick. Future Islands are a band that we love and Real Estate is playing today. Our friend’s in Gift, our friend is in Walt Disco, as well. Hannah Frances. Sunday is a strong day; today is a strong day.

What can we expect from Nation of Language in the year to come?

Ian: In the year coming up, there’s gonna be a lot of touring, which thankfully we love doing. We get really itchy when we’re at home too long without playing shows. So it’s really nice to be starting up this new cycle of touring and really digging in and getting out to see everyone.

Alex: Yeah. Learning some new songs from the past couple of years and some new music, perhaps, that we will be playing at shows. Yeah, just excited to be starting this year, hitting the ground running at this festival.

Photography: Travis Trautt

K-pop group MEOVV, composed of Sooin, Gawon, Anna, Narin and Ella, have been scooping up fans since they released their debut single “MEOW” in 2024 and their mix of heavy trap-influenced bass and exciting visuals have kept them top of mind ever since. Plus, just three months after their launch, they took home the coveted Favorite New Artist trophy at the MAMA Awards, which highlights the best of K-pop and Asian music.

The group shared their EP, MY EYES OPEN VVIDE, earlier this month with six tracks that gave listeners a glimpse into their world. They confidently assert across the EP that their individuality is their strongest asset and they won’t be retiring it as they break onto the scene, one that is ever-growing and hyper-competitive. “HANDS UP,” one of the singles released prior to the EP is Brazilian funk-inspired, with bouncing beats influencing the chill choreography the group went on to film and post on social media to promote its drop. “LIT RIGHT NOW” closes the EP with a more reserved, R&B cut that’s poppy and hook-heavy.

PAPER caught up with MEOVV to talk about their EP, their fans (that they refer to as PAWMPAWMs) the role fashion plays in their artistry and the pressures of being deemed a group to watch.

Your debut EP, MY EYES OPEN VVIDE, came out this month. How are you feeling about the release?

Gawon: We’ve known and loved all the songs in our EP since before our debut as trainees, so finally being able to put them out into the world means a lot to us. It’s the accumulation of the songs we’ve released so far and therefore feels like a real beginning and introduction. We hold this EP very close to our hearts and hope everyone loves it as much as we do.

Narin: Yeah. Since it’s our first album, it honestly feels like we’re debuting all over again. We’re so excited to finally perform more of our songs on stage and show different sides of ourselves. It makes us really happy that all six songs on the album are ones we truly love, and we’re especially excited to finally release “DROP TOP” and “LIT RIGHT NOW,” which our fans have been waiting for! More than anything, we’re just looking forward to meeting more of our fans all over the world and connecting through our music.

What are the tracks you were most excited for the world to hear?

Sooin: There are a lot of songs on this EP, each with its own vibe and character, so I think our fans will really enjoy listening to it. ‘DROP TOP’ in particular feels very new and refreshing for us, so I’m curious to see if the public will feel the same way too!

Anna: This EP album has six songs in total, and each one has a completely different vibe. So I hope you’ll listen to them based on your mood each day! ‘LIT RIGHT NOW’ is one of the B-side tracks, and it’s a special song that we’ve cherished since our trainee days. These days, it’s also my favorite!

MY EYES OPEN VVIDE is also a visual album. What led you to that decision? How do visuals play a role in MEOVV’s identity as a group?

Narin: From the beginning, we always knew visuals would be a big part of MY EYES OPEN VVIDE, because visuals are such an important part of how we express ourselves as a group. The album itself is about seeing the world with new eyes and breaking out of limitations, so creating a visual album that brings our vision to life felt like a natural extension of that message. We wanted to tell the story, show our emotions, and highlight the energy behind each song through the visuals. We wanted people to see and feel our music.

Ella: In the title of our album, there is literally a mention of eyes. We see our identity very clearly through our visuals!

Do you guys have plans to take MY EYES OPEN VVIDE on tour?

Gawon: Going on tour has been one of our top goals even before we became MEOVV, and it’s something we’re always planning and mapping out. With this EP, we really want to put as much of ourselves out there as possible, so we’ve already prepared several opportunities to meet our international PAWMPAWMs. As we continue to release more music — and yes, we’ll be coming back not long after this EP promotion — we’ll definitely be solidifying both our name as MEOVV and our plans for a tour.

Ella: We definitely have talked about a tour and it’s all of our dreams! Right now we are focusing on promoting more through YouTube content and fan signing events!

Anna: We’re planning to promote our EP not only in Korea but also in countries overseas! The thought that we’ll soon get to meet our PAWMPAWMs from all around the world — something we’ve always dreamed of — makes me so excited!

I saw that Ella recently became an ambassador for Miu Miu. Gawon is working with Prada. How does fashion play a role for MEOVV? What are some other favorite designers for you guys right now?

Gawon: Fashion is a core element of what makes MEOVV who we are. Ever since I was a child, I loved dressing up and putting on mini fashion shows by myself, and that passion has stayed with me. Now, as a member of MEOVV, I get to channel that love into our group’s identity. Our style isn’t just about looking good — it’s essential to tying everything together and expressing who we are on and off stage.

Sooin: We often spend a lot of time thinking about what we should wear or what we’d like to wear. We also search online for ideas and talk a lot with our styling director, who works closely with us. In the end, it always feels like we manage to find the best option.

Anna: Fashion is such an important element for our group. It’s the easiest way to express yourself, and it’s really fun to see how a person’s image and appeal change drastically with a change of an outfit. I love how we get to see our different sides every time we have a fitting session.

You took home the Favorite Rising Artist award from last year’s MAMA Awards. How do accolades like that impact the music you’re about to put out?

Narin: Winning Favorite Rising Artist at last year’s MAMA Awards meant so much to us. It was a huge honor, and it reminded us that people are really connecting with what we’re doing. It also motivated us to keep growing and pushing ourselves creatively during the preparation for the first EP and it really helped us bring even more honesty, energy, and originality into the music we put out. We always want to live up to the love and support we’ve received, and show how much we’ve grown.

Ella: When we received that award it was a big motivation for me! I was excited and passionate to try and get another big award like that.

Sooin: To receive such an award in such an early stage of our career really motivated us to work even harder so that we could receive an even bigger award. To be able to do so, we’re always trying to think of different ways to show more diverse and refreshing sides of our group.

Photography: THEBLACKLABEL

Michael Clifford has read some crazy fan fiction about himself. “There’s one that’s so explicit I can’t even say it,” he tells PAPER. “You wouldn’t be able to write it down. It’s that messed up.”

Gone are the days of Tumblr and Wattpad in the early 2010s, when 13-year-old girls would muster up the most detailed, graphic depictions of their favorite boy band members as if it was their full-time job. But having gotten his start in Australian pop-punk boy band 5 Seconds of Summer, Clifford knows the phenomenon like the back of his hand.

For the 29-year-old, fan fiction isn’t just internet ephemera — it’s an aesthetic. His new solo music video for “give me a break! (feat. waterparks),” out today, takes cues from anime, Y2K fandom tropes, and the unhinged energy of those early online archives. “The concept was fanfic-meets-Death Note,” he says. “I wanted to celebrate fan fiction. There’s something beautiful about something that came straight from someone’s brain, in their bedroom. It wasn’t meant to be perfect.”

That’s the exact ethos behind Sidequest, Clifford’s debut solo album. Written during a period of massive personal change — becoming a dad, relocating, stepping outside the gravitational pull of 5SOS — the project embraces imperfection and spontaneity. “With this project, I’m just having fun,” he says. “I’m not saying no to any ideas. Sometimes I’d stop myself because something felt stupid or crazy — and now I just let my brain go nuts.”

The result is an album that feels like a scrapbook of chaotic brilliance: emo sincerity wrapped in a candy-coated glitch-pop wrapper. It follows “cool,” Clifford’s first-ever solo single, which dropped earlier this year and teased a sound that’s looser, dreamier and more introspective than his band’s stadium-filling hooks.

Still, Clifford isn’t leaving 5SOS behind. “We can do both,” he says. “There’s no weirdness, no bad blood. We still have the band and we still make music together, but now we’re also creating separately. It just gives us more outlets.”

If Sidequest is any indication, Clifford’s outlet is one where joy and vulnerability can coexist, where music videos happen in shopping carts, and growing up doesn’t mean growing dull. “There are no expectations, no past catalog to measure against,” he says. “It’s just fun again. It’s a blank slate.”

Below, PAPER chats with Clifford to discuss how the Tumblr era influenced his current work, wild fan fiction stories and becoming a dad.

Where are you calling from right now?

I’m at home in Atlanta, just hanging out. I’ve been up since 5:30 am. My daughter’s an early bird, so I’m a little delirious.

I didn’t know you were based in Atlanta.

Yeah, we’re actually moving again soon. Probably by the time this interview comes out, we’ll be back in LA. But we’ve been here for a while. It’s been fun. Completely different from LA. We were living way out in the country, which was actually perfect for becoming parents. Slower pace, more space. It was a good change.

Have you had to totally shift your lifestyle since becoming a parent?

Oh, absolutely. It’s fucking wild. There’s just no real way to prepare for how much your life flips. Not in a bad way, but it’s a complete reset. The priorities, the perspective—it all shifts. It’s incredible.

Is anyone else in 5 Seconds of Summer a dad?

Nope, just me.

You’ve gone solo (congrats), but you’re still fully in the band too?

Yeah, we can do both. Why not? It’s been a pretty natural transition, honestly. Everyone’s done their own thing. Luke and Ash had solo projects a few years ago and just dropped new ones, and now Cal and I are both doing ours at the same time. It’s felt really normal. There’s no weirdness, no bad blood. We still have the band and we still make music together, but now we’re also creating separately. It just gives us more outlets to be creative. And we’re lucky that our fans care about us individually too.

With my project, Sidequest, I’m just having fun. I’m not saying no to any ideas. Sometimes I’d stop myself in an idea because it felt stupid or crazy — and now I just let my brain go nuts. And it’s been awesome.

It’s interesting. I’m very obsessed with boy bands and girl groups, and I’ve noticed over the years that the American ones tend to break up more quickly, but British ones seem to stick together longer.

Yeah, that’s an interesting observation. I think what we’ve always loved doing is taking influences from stuff that isn’t traditional for a band like us. We started as a metal band and then became a pop rock band. But we love pulling in sensibilities from other acts and different genres — things that wouldn’t usually work for a band.

Doing solo projects is definitely more of a boy band or girl group thing, but when you apply that to a rock band like us, it becomes something really unique. And we’ve always, from the beginning, loved doing shit like that. You know, we’re a rock band, and we’re all singers and we’re all artists. It’s hard to have four singers in a band that wasn’t put together, you know? But somehow it works for us.

Maybe that’s the secret—you guys weren’t put together in, like, a Simon Cowell X-Factor way.

Yeah, exactly. Maybe we’re just glued together at this point. There’s no getting out now.

You just filmed the video for “give me a break! (feat. waterparks),” right? I saw the treatment. It looked anime-inspired.

Yeah, the original concept was fanfic-meets-Death Note. I’ve read so much insane fan fiction over the years, and I thought, “What if the things someone wrote actually started happening in real life?”

There’s definitely no shortage of Waterparks or Michael fanfic out there. Some of them are insane. We leaned into that. I really wanted to celebrate fan fiction, honestly. I think it’s incredible how fans build their own worlds and narratives.

But yeah, sometimes it’s wild to read about yourself, especially when it gets intense or weird. With the video, we wanted fan fiction to look good. We wanted the girl in the video to look like a hero too. It was all about honoring that world while making something fun and stylized.

I love the absurdity of fandom and fan fiction. I was a total Tumblr kid. You guys formed in 2011, right?

Yeah. We were deep in the Tumblr zeitgeist—that whole era really influenced what I’m making now. There’s something about that specific time on the internet that I’m still drawing from. It had a spirit that doesn’t really exist anymore.

AI has probably ruined fan fiction.

Yeah, now you can just ask it to write you something. But what I always loved about fan fiction was the imperfections. When you read something and there’s a repeated word, or weird grammar. It wasn’t polished, and that was the point. It came straight from someone’s brain, in their bedroom. That’s what made it beautiful. Honestly, that’s how I feel about music too. The more human it is, the better.

Were you reading fanfics back then? What’s the craziest one you’ve come across about yourself?

Never willingly. I’ve definitely been forced into it. There’s one I just got reminded of, but… I’m not saying it. I don’t want to put anyone’s fanfic out there like that. I do want to make a video one day where I go through a bunch, though.

The ones I like most are the ones that are almost based in reality, where it feels like it could’ve happened. But yeah, some of them are totally unhinged. There’s one that’s so explicit I can’t even say it. You wouldn’t be able to write it down. It’s that messed up.

Not safe for work.

Very NSFW.

How has fatherhood changed the way you approach writing music? Did that influence the decision to go solo?

I already had a bunch of music that was close to ready, like a full album’s worth. But after becoming a parent, I paused everything for a bit. When I came back to it, I had a totally different perspective. Watching my daughter discover the world for the first time gave me this sense of wonder again. She gets so much joy from the tiniest things. That energy helped me re-approach the album like, “Let’s just make this fun. Let’s not overthink it.” It completely changed my process, and honestly, it made the album better.

There must be emotions you can express in your solo music that you can’t fully tap into with 5SOS.

Exactly. It’s just a different thing. When you write for a band, the message has to resonate with everyone. It’s a shared expression. But solo music can be purely yours. It’s your experience, your voice, your way of saying something. You even see that in what Luke and Ashton have done solo. Those were things only they could say. When it’s just you, the voice is more direct. It’s different in the best way.

You’ve been open about mental health and navigating fame. Is there a specific memory from the early 5SOS days (2011 or 2012) that really stands out?

What I’ve been realizing while releasing solo music is that, in the beginning, there was no pressure. Everything was new. There were no expectations. We hadn’t released anything, so everything felt possible. After five albums, you start to feel a responsibility to do justice to the legacy of the band and what it means to people. It’s this thing that has so many memories for so many people. That’s not a bad thing, but it does change the creative process.

With the solo project, I feel like I’m back at the start. It’s the same as how I felt in the very, very beginning — just pure fun. There are no expectations, no past catalog to measure against. It’s just fun again. It’s a blank slate, and that’s such a freeing feeling.

How would you describe the album to your fans? Anything you want them to know before it drops?

From the beginning, I just wanted this to be fun. I want people to immerse themselves in it, to enjoy the world of it. I take making music seriously—but everything else around it? That’s just for fun. Honestly, I hope people catch the energy: this whole thing is one big side quest. Come have fun with me. Come fight me on Twitter.

Fight me on Twitter. Love it. Thanks so much for talking with me.

Thank you! Appreciate it. Take care!

Photography: Ryan Fleming

Rico Nasty hit a wall. At one point in her career, specifically after her last album in 2022, the 27-year-old rapper and “Sugar Trap” singer felt like she was becoming a caricature of herself. The outfits, the screaming, the spectacle — it had started to feel like a costume she couldn’t take off.

“I don’t think I knew what I was really signing up for when I started making music,” she tells PAPER. “I got to that point and I was like, Wait, let me do some self-reflection. Let me get to the bottom of all these emotions and also show that in my work.”

In comes LETHAL, her brand new album, out now. It doesn’t sound like a departure so much as a distillation. The chaos has been pared back, the edges sharpened. Horror-movie aesthetics meet emotional precision — haunted production, cool tones and verses that don’t need to be yelled to land hard. “That was the biggest adjustment,” Rico says. “Having this big heart, but making music that suggests otherwise.”

Across the album, Rico isn’t reinventing herself — she’s unmasking. The visuals draw from cult horror (Saw, Smile, The Substance), but the real tension is internal: performance vs. personhood. She’s letting go of expectation, not energy.

“I don’t want to be this gimmicky thing of ‘Rico Nasty,’ this big costume,” she says. “I just want to be myself.” That instinct carries into her first major acting role in Margo’s Got Money Troubles, an upcoming A24 series where she’ll star opposite Nicole Kidman.

For someone who grew up on thrillers and always had a face made for high-stakes close-ups, it’s a fitting next move. She’s still building worlds. She’s just choosing which ones she wants to live in. And this time, she’s the one in control of the frame.

Below, PAPER sits down with Rico to discuss her favorite horror movies, her creepy smile and why this might be her most personal project yet.

Congrats on LETHAL. You’re also filming right now, right?

Yes.

How has that been going? Is this your first acting role?

Yeah, it’s my first real acting [role]. It’s been really fun. I had a fitting today. Everybody on set is really cool, and it’s really fun. I’m not gonna lie, I feel like after doing this press run — and that was more music-based — now getting back to work on set, I’m just like, oh, I love acting. I don’t know if it’s stealing the shine from the music, but I just like it. I like being on set. I like knowing exactly what’s going to happen, from the moment you get there to the moment it ends. With music, you might not know what’s going to happen. It’s a bit random. But I still love both. It’s crazy, having them in parallel like that. But yeah — major, major blessing. I’m so, so happy.

Did you always want to act as a kid? Did you see yourself as an actor, or was it always just music?

It’s so funny. Actually, my parents had me in acting classes when I was eight years old. It didn’t last long, but I remember I was in acting classes for a while. And then in my actual career as a rapper, I’ve auditioned, sent in tapes — because I didn’t live in LA, so I couldn’t go to actual castings. So yeah, I guess you could say it is something I’ve always wanted to do. As a child, it’s weird. I knew I wanted to do something involving a camera and a crowd, but I didn’t know at that age that I wanted to do music. So I think it’s funny just watching how it’s transformed.

Are you able to cry on demand?

No, boo. I’m not that good yet.

Off the bat, I feel like the visuals for LETHAL gave me Saw (2004) vibes. Did you ever watch those?

Saw? Fuck yeah. Yeah. Oh my god, I love you for that. Go, go. Tell me more. Why did you feel like that?

The press imagery — the basement. I was sent a press kit with these photos, and it’s like someone’s wrapped in a bag in this dingy basement. Even the needles on the cover. I was really into those movies. Are you a horror movie person?

I am a horror movie person. And I think it’s really weird that you tied that together because do you know what the vinyl is? The vinyl is a saw.

Oh, really?

Yeah. So for you to put that together — that’s a thing. I definitely did want to give an ode to the horror movies I watch, and just that energy in general. That “Where are they? What’s happening? How did they get there?” energy. And I also feel like it was a very sexy and mysterious way to channel that scary kind of energy that I still have. I feel like a lot of my stuff had drifted off one way or another — it drifted off into this Halloween style. If someone’s in crazy clown makeup and wild hair, it’s like, “Oh, that’s Rico Nasty.” So for this album, I really just wanted to tone it down, simplify it, and pay attention to cool tones. And I watched a lot of scary movies making this album. So that’s funny that you picked up on that, because I never said that. I never mentioned it anywhere. I didn’t know if anybody would peep.

Those Saw visuals just stuck in my brain. I don’t even know why I was allowed to watch those movies as a kid. I was like eight. But I just watched all the most fucked-up shit. What movies did you watch while making this album? And also, what’s your favorite scary movie?

I watched this one movie. It’s called Yesterday. It’s not a scary movie, but I watched it with my son. There’s a scene where they’re going through a car wash and the water’s spraying them. The whole premise is that the parents have to say yes all day to whatever the kids ask. So they end up doing some really wild shit. And then the song was called “YEA3x,” so I knew I wanted there to be some water involved because of that scene in particular.

Another movie I watched while making the album was Lakeview Terrace. I loved that feeling — like, somebody’s watching you when you move into a new place. I had just moved into a new place, too. Something about the coloring in that film, the blues and gray tones in this really nice neighborhood. I really liked that.

And one of my favorite scary movies of all time is House of 1000 Corpses. I love Rob Zombie movies, like The Devil’s Rejects and shit like that. Also Texas Chainsaw Massacre, the real deal one. Not the new fake ones.

Like the 1970s one?

Maybe the early 2000s one. Yeah. But I love that movie. And House of Wax.

I love House of Wax. Oh my God, that’s like top three for me.

House of Wax is crazy. And I mean, I also loved it just because of the cast. The cast was crazy. I miss when movies would do that.

I remember being a kid and they’d always play it on HBO. I would sit on the sofa and watch it over and over again. I don’t know why I loved it so much. Some of the slasher scenes were really creative. Like when he cuts the guy’s finger off in the sewer? He puts his hand up and just, chop.

I’m being so crazy for not mentioning it, but obviously The Substance was a movie that inspired a lot. Like the text I’m using, and just that feeling of merging the two double lives. That’s kind of what the album’s about. I don’t want to be this gimmicky thing of “Rico Nasty,” this big costume. I just want to be myself. The album is kind of about battling between those two sides — and your real self wins. I love that movie. It’s really, really crazy.

And you mentioned creative gore. That one is obviously gory as fuck. Super cool. Smile is another one I watched. I saw both the first and the second one. I thought it was really cool. I’ve always been told I have a very creepy smile, so the minute I saw the preview, I was like, let me check this out. I really fucked with that one too. We can go on and on about scary movies. That’s honestly my forte. Lowkey I’m into Japanese horror films too. There’s this one called The Sadness. It’s a zombie movie. That shit is terrifying. I had to cut it off halfway through because I was literally watching it alone and I was terrified. I was like, if this happened right now, I’d die. I can’t do this.

So you actually get scared?

Not normally, but that movie in particular was pretty high on the scale. It was pretty scary. It’s very fast-paced, very gory, and very crude. Like, no filter, no remorse type of gore.

That and Final Destination. That movie stuck with me as a kid.

Final Destination is dropping the day the album releases. That’s probably what I’m going to be doing that day — going to the movies to watch it.

I feel like you should star in a horror movie.

Thank you. I also went to go see a horror movie that had just come out by A24 called Opus. I went to the premiere and that film was insane. I’m not sure if I can say too much about it, but it was fucking crazy. A24 really does a good job with scary thrillers. I really liked Tusk. So it’s crazy, being on an A24 project now — like, maybe that horror movie dream isn’t that far away. It’s wild being able to even say I’m working on something with that production company in particular. They’ve done some of this generation’s favorite stuff.

Yeah, Hereditary was the last scary movie that actually made me feel scared.

Hereditary was crazy. Even Euphoria was crazy. Like, the thrill in that show was insane. It really kept you on your toes.

You mentioned the perception people have of you — the screaming, wild persona. I don’t know why this came to mind, but did you see the Drag Race impersonation of you on Snatch Game?

I did. I think I did. Weren’t people saying it was wrong?

It was kind of whack, in my opinion.

Yeah, people were saying she didn’t fully embody me, but it’s okay. They just need to have me on there. That’s what they need. Have me on there doing something. She still ate the look up though. The look ate. I’ll give her a 10 for that. She ate that look up. But the personality wasn’t really it. Like, come on guys. You should’ve had me in there.

Yeah, it was Yvie Oddly. She’s horror drag queen, too.

Oh, Yvie Oddly. We gotta put respect on her name. She’s really, really fire. And honestly, when I saw it, I was just happy to even be mentioned on Drag Race. I didn’t give a flying fuck about the opinions on it. I was like, wait a minute. Stop. You mentioned little ol’ me?

Do you watch Drag Race regularly?

I didn’t, but one of my makeup artists — she’s from Australia — she watches it religiously. She came on tour and was watching it every day on the bus. Eventually, I sat in and got the chance to watch it. And then little by little, I was like, oh my god — this bitch, I don’t like her. I don’t like her. It’s just so much tea. I really did enjoy it though. It’s a really good show. I watched seasons three and four.

You talked about how this album is coming into your own. Did you struggle with the perceptions of you versus how you actually are on the inside?

Yeah, I feel like I struggled with it a lot. I had created this super hard outer shell, and little by little, I subconsciously became the walls I put up. I didn’t mean to be so hard on myself, but I was. I don’t think I knew what I was really signing up for when I started making music. That was the biggest adjustment. Having this big heart, but making music that suggests otherwise. People would approach me with this energy that didn’t match me. And I don’t mean violent energy, I mean fear. People were afraid to talk to me. I hated that. I hated that people thought I was unapproachable. That’s not who I am. I’m a kind person. I’m forgiving. But when people are scared to speak up around you, it’s weird. It’s like there’s no guidance. Does that make sense? It feels like nobody cares about you.

So I got to that point, and I was like, wait, let me do some self-reflection. Let me get to the bottom of all these emotions, and also show that in my work. I didn’t want to just change without anyone understanding why. And it’s not like I’m saying it outright on the album, but I was definitely growing. I took a lot of time away from music.

I felt like I had to answer to the fans — why I took that time away, what I was working on. And the truth is, I was working on myself. This album is literally about working on yourself and choosing yourself at the end of the day. Realizing that a lot of the battles you face aren’t even yours to fight. Sometimes you just have to go with the flow. Everybody says it: there’s no good without bad. This album is just a tale of that.

I love that you love The Smiths and have this really sensitive side to you. You’re 27, right? You’re about to enter your Saturn Return.

Yeah. But it’s weird, too, because that speaks to my music. I’m a fan of rock music, but not the kind they usually compare me to — because I didn’t grow up with it. Not that I don’t like it, I just didn’t know about it. A lot of bands, my fans actually put me on to through comparison. They’d be like, “Oh my god, have you heard this? You sound like you could do a song like this.” And it’s weird — I got engulfed in it. Like, “Okay, this is what they like, this is what they think, so let me keep doing this.”

Then little by little, it got repetitive. And I was like, I wonder if they’d like my version of the music I like. I’m not listening to metal every day. There’s a time and place for that. That’s what my music is — time and place music. I don’t make music that’s for everybody. And with this album, I wasn’t trying to fix that. I just wanted to show a different side. Like, dude, a lot of the time I’m listening to Paramore, The Smiths, The Drums. It’s more chill. I’m not always like, “RAH RAH RAH.” And that goes back to my personality. People expect me to be like that all the time. And I don’t want to be underwhelming, but bitch, I’m not like that. I like my peace and quiet. I don’t give a fuck.

I love “Smile,” the closing track. I love that you ended on that note. And you said you were thinking about your son while writing it. There’s that line — “You embody all the best parts of me.” What parts do you think your son embodies of you?

Well, on the song, I feel like we have the same eyes. People always say we look alike. But when I mention his mind — the way we think — we have so many similarities. He’s always going to try to negotiate his way out of something. There’s always a bargain somewhere. He could sell water to a dolphin. He’s just very good with his words. And he’s also very creative and a very quick learner. Those were things I used to get compliments on as a kid. Seeing him have those same qualities makes me excited for his future. I can only imagine what he’s going to do with all the cool shit he’s learning now.

He knows about so many cool things. And he’s not a follower. He’s not afraid to go against the grain, even if it’s people he looks up to. If he wants to do his own thing, he’s going to do it.

He’s at that age where he’s becoming a little person. No more baby shit. And I’m proud of who he’s becoming. I remember being that age and not really questioning myself, but I do wish I had the confidence he has. He has crazy confidence.

And that’s not to say my parents didn’t instill confidence in me. I just think financially, it was different for me growing up. For him, it’s not. If he wants to do something, he can. And it’s really cool to watch him piece together the things he likes and figure shit out. It’s insane.

And he was born when your music career was taking off, right? So you guys have been growing together in a way.

Yeah. He was almost two when it started becoming a real thing. But yeah, they’re like my two babies, I guess you could say.

What’s your perspective on coining your signature “Sugar Trap” sound? Do you feel pressure to keep in that realm and maintain the brand, or is it just inherent in you?

I feel like it’s just inherent in me. I don’t think it’s anything I’m trying to do, and I definitely don’t feel like it’s a vibe you get on every song. It’s something that just happens.

A lot of the time when I do make Sugar Trap songs, I definitely feel like I want to stray away from it. I’ve already done this. I don’t want to keep doing it. But there is something about it — like, I would consider “ON THE LOW” Sugar Trap energy. I’ve seen people say they think the beat sounds like Dylan Brady. I never thought of that, but I can hear it.

I definitely feel like “PINK” is Sugar Trap. And a lot of times it’s not even the tone, it’s the way the music makes you feel. It has this bouncy energy. But sometimes it’s also the content. It’s not necessarily girly, pretty, cutesy shit. I’m still talking about the average trap music themes, with the metaphors and the bars. That’s what makes it fun and bouncy — mixing the two.

But I’m not actively trying to do it or repeat it or bring it back. It’s just who I am. It’ll make an appearance every now and again.

Are there any artists you’re particularly obsessed with right now? Or just any current obsessions people would be surprised to know about? I know you got into Gundam-building during the making of this record.

Oh yeah, I definitely did. I became obsessed with it. I’m literally looking at boxes of it right now. I built so many, like 20 of them. Another thing I became obsessed with is Trader Joe’s. I love Trader Joe’s.

As far as music, I love The Cranberries. I mean, obviously I knew “Zombie,” but there are other songs where I’m like, oh my god. There’s one called “Disappointment,” another one called “Twenty One.” Just so many songs I love by them. I dove back into The Smiths. There was a song I forgot I loved called “Asleep.” That’s my favorite song to drive to. I love Rob49 — the “What the Helly” guy. Love him. I love Babyface Ray. I went through a Baby Keem phase.

But musically, I jump around. I always go back to the classics. I peek my head out to see what’s hot, then go back to what I always listen to. I think I have ADHD brain or whatever I’ll listen to the same song on repeat while I’m getting dressed and not even notice. It’ll take someone walking in like, “Can you change this fucking song?”

Photography: Chris Yellen, Devin Desouza, Emerald Arguelles

If there’s one thing that EKKSTACY wants his fans to know, it’s to forget everything. “Everything that I did before this [album] is trash, and they should forget about it,” he tells PAPER.

The Vancouver-born artist has never been one to sugarcoat things. At just 22, EKKSTACY has already carved out a distinct space for himself in the blurry overlap of post-punk revival, SoundCloud rap and lo-fi grunge-pop — but he’s done with being boxed in. With the release of FOREVER, his fourth full-length project, he’s shedding past aesthetics and doubling down on live instrumentation, raw emotion, and a sound he describes as “more explosive.” He’s tired of the programmed drums. Tired of lo-fi guitar tones. Tired of limitations. “I hit a wall,” he says. “Now, there’s no ceiling.”

In our conversation, he’s refreshingly candid — about music, mental health, the pitfalls of partying, and yes, shitting the bed as a kid. It’s this unfiltered energy that makes him feel less like a press-trained indie star and more like the one kid at the party you end up talking to for hours on the back porch. He’ll riff on his love-hate relationship with the internet (he hates it), his gothic-rave-meets-skate-punk fanbase (“all types of motherfuckers”), and his surreal tattoo experiences in ketamine-filled Paris apartments. Yet despite the chaos and candor, there’s a calm precision to his vision. FOREVER is both a statement and a launchpad — a marker of who he is and who he might become.

There’s also a surprising softness under all the edge. Songs like “keep my head down” tap into a vulnerable core that feels markedly different from his earlier work. “I have all these friends, but there’s so much of me I don’t show,” he sings on the track. It’s not just the sonic shift that makes this album feel new — it’s the perspective. He’s clear-eyed. Focused. (Mostly) sober. And with Germany already eating up his latest tour dates and his own weird little legion of misfit fans growing by the day, EKKSTACY seems poised to become something bigger than the underground.

Below, EKKSTACY talks about ghosts, Germany, getting clean and why he feels best when he’s just skating with his friends.

Where are you?

I’m in Vancouver, going to the skate park.

Whenever I think of Vancouver, I think of Nardwuar.

Yep, Nardwuar is around. He’s around town. You know, he works for the FBI.

Have you ever met him? Or do you want to be interviewed by him?

I’d do it. It’d be weird, but I’d do it. I’ve never met him, though. I’ve never seen him either.

I met him once at South by Southwest. He’s like an alien.

Yeah, he’s fucking insane. Who knows how he does it, bro?

Well, congrats on your new album.

Thanks, man. I’m stoked on it.

Why the name FOREVER?

I think it just fit in with the other ones really well. I wanted it to be a definitive name.

Yeah, because your last one was self-titled.

It was NEGATIVE, misery, EKKSTACY, and then FOREVER. I just thought that worked perfectly. I wanted to name it DESTROY, but I didn’t want it to be like Destroy Lonely. I couldn’t name it DESTROY. It was kind of too close to Sex Pistols, because their shit was like, ‘Destroy.’

I really like the song, “keep my head down.” I feel like it’s you being more vulnerable than you’ve ever been. I mean, we kind of know each other. I don’t know what album cycle that was when we met, but that was in 2022 or something.

It was a while ago. I feel like I’ve seen you since then, though.

How do you think you’ve evolved since then?

I was moving away from the computer rock stuff and moving more into the full band sound. I fell out of love with the programmed drums and the lo-fi guitars. I wanted it to be a more big sound, a more explosive sound. Just because playing with the band for so long, I got sick of all the fake drums and shitty guitar tones. I was like, bro, I want to just make a real rock record.

Yeah.

But also, I think my next album is going to be better. This one’s great, and I love it. But it was an introduction to how things can be. I felt like I had hit a ceiling with the sound I had before. I definitely hit a ceiling. But now there’s no ceiling again, and I can just work hard and make cool shit again, because I felt like I was at a fucking wall for so long with the last shit.

Why do you feel like you had hit a wall?

I feel like I just said everything I needed to say on that sound and just beat the fuck out of that sound. Too much.

What’s the demographic of your fans?

It’s all types of fools. I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but I’ve noticed that there’s not a certain type of fool that goes to one of my shows. There’s goth fools, indie fools, just fools that look completely normal. Boys, girls, older people, really young people. It’s all types of motherfuckers, which is cool and weird, I guess. But it’s cool. I remember at this one show, this girl was there with her fucking dad, and she had to be, like, 12. She was like, “Oh my God,” fanboying over me like I was fucking in One Direction or some shit. Then there are fools that are old punk dudes that are like, “Man, you fucking make me feel like I’m fucking 20 again. I fucking love you.” Like, fuck yeah, dude.

What’s your relationship to attention and fame and fans? Do you like to talk to your fans?

I don’t really do internet shit. I should. But internet shit, I don’t like it. I don’t interact, and I get in trouble for it because motherfuckers are like, “Bro, you need to fucking interact with your fans.” Why? What am I gonna say? “Thanks, man, thanks for listening. Thank you.” I don’t know. I like to talk to them at the shows, though. That’s way different. At the shows, I’ll stay afterwards and talk and sign bullshit for hours, but on my phone, I’d rather not look at Instagram. I feel super regular. I do regular shit all the time. I’m regular as fuck. Just hang out with my friends and get fucking hammered, go to the skate park. I have my car. I think the only time I feel famous is when I’m in Germany.

Why Germany?

Because I’m just bigger over there than I am in North America.

That’s interesting. I wonder why?

No idea. I think that my type of music is just popular over there. So it just worked out. The shows there sell out, and they’re big. The kids are insane.

Don’t you have a tattoo that’s in German? Or is it Russian?

I have a Russian one. I have a German one too. I have a Russian one on my chest that says ‘Love,’ and then I have one on my hand that says ‘Ausgang.’ That means ‘exit.’ That’s German.

What’s your craziest tattoo experience?

One that comes to mind was when me and my guitarist were in Paris, and we met these two fools. I knew them on gram, and we pulled up to their crib at midnight or some shit. We pull up to this dungeon ass house, like a tiny fucking studio apartment in Paris. It’s late as fuck. We don’t know where the fuck we are. Both of our phones are almost dead. We pull up on these fools and they’re scary fools. Like, you know when you just know that someone’s just really fucked up and, really addicted to ketamine. You know, those types of Euro people.

So they’re both fucking straight ketamine addicts, skinny fucking scary fools. So it’s the middle of the night, and we’re like, “Fuck alright, whatever. Let’s do it.” So we go up to their apartment. It’s fucking scary in there. It smells like shit, fucking shit everywhere. Fucking dudes are in there shooting ketamine. And we’re like, “All right, man, let’s just get these tats over with.” Because I’m not really into drugs. I mean, at that point I wasn’t. So I’m getting this tattoo right by my dick. He’s all up in my shit, and I’m just dead sober. I’m just like, fuck dude, get me the fuck out of here, bro. Fuck. They barely spoke English, but then we ended up talking, and they were actually hella funny. We ended up staying for the whole night and got so many tats. They ended up being really cool. But yeah, the dude shooting K in his crib, it was gnarly watching that. Because the dude was telling us that he worked at a safe using center in Paris, and then he just goes straight to shooting K in his house. And we’re like, “Yep, cool.” But it was fun. There’s been a lot of crazy tats. One time I was on Xanax and ketamine getting my hand tatted, and I was in a whole other fucking realm of existence. I did not know what the fuck was going on. I couldn’t even feel my hand, and it should have really hurt. We were deep in Germany somewhere, I didn’t even know.

Why do you think people get tattoos?

I don’t know. I got tats because I thought they looked cool and I wanted to cover my body. I think it’s a feeling ugly thing, to be honest. I don’t know if it’s a good addition to anyone, whether you’re fucking busted or not. You can’t go wrong with tats, you know? I always thought they were sick. The dudes I thought were cool when I was growing up, all were tatted up. So I was just like, “Fuck it.”

What’s your ritual before playing a show?

I have a strong ritual. It has never changed. Well, honestly, it has changed, but the OG ritual was pull up, sound check, and then get as drunk as possible. Get to the point where you’re close to blacking out, but you’re still there, so you don’t do anything stupid. Then play the show, and then stay at the show for a couple hours until everyone’s gone, and then go party. And then wake up and do it again. It got bad because I was drinking too much. And then I started blacking out at shows and doing stupid shit. Then I started getting into drugs in Germany. It was pretty gnarly. Then that transferred into my normal life, which was bad for a bit, but then I got clean.

Was this recent? You got clean?

Yeah. The funny thing is, I didn’t even get addicted to the hard shit. I got really addicted to Xanax and Klonopin. I’d do coke and K, blah, blah, blah, and then I’d do Xanax in the morning because I’d get so anxious from the come down. I just got super addicted to the fucking pills. But I knocked it. It took a few weeks, but I got.

Do you have any ghost stories?

Yeah, one time me and my homies were in a graveyard. Typical, but this is real, bro. This happened. We were at a graveyard, me and three of my homies, and we’re just walking around. All of us are sober. We were 16. Then at the same time, we all look over to the right, maybe 40 feet away, and we see a dark figure behind a fucking tombstone. It looked like it was walking down this flight of stairs, away from us. Then we all just ran away. We all saw it. We were all there. It made no sense. We sat in the car after being like, “What was that?”

What’s your earliest memory?

I have a really deep memory of me shitting my bed when I was a kid. It was the classic meme where I went into my parents room and was like, “I shit myself.” I have a really old memory of me flying remote-controlled airplanes with my grandpa at his house. That was fun. But yeah, the shit one has to be really old, because I was living in downtown Vancouver with my parents when I was really fucking young, like two or three or some shit. That’s the house I remember doing the shit in.

If there was a lyric from this new album that a fan of yours would get tattooed, what lyric do you think it would be?

I’ve seen a lot of people get “I walk this earth all by myself” tattooed, but from the new album, probably “keep my head down.”

What do you have to say to your fans in general about this new era?

I just want everyone to know that it’s the beginning of a lot of cool shit that I’m about to do. Everything I did before this is just trash, and they should forget about it. The new shit is about to be fresh, and I want them to also know that I shit myself a lot when I was a kid.

Usually it’s peeing in the bed, but not shitting the bed.

No, no. I was ripping butt in the bed, dude. I remember one time my sister shit herself in her car seat. That was a really early memory, and that was the funniest thing that has ever happened. You being five years old and your baby sister just starts pooing herself. What’s funnier than that?

I do not have those memories. I don’t know why.

Do you have siblings?

Yeah. Maybe that’s a Canadian thing.

[Laughs] That was the funniest thing. But yeah, I don’t know. I put a lot into this one, way more than the last one. So I hope people can listen from the top to the bottom and really take it in.

Thanks for chatting with me.

Have a good one, bro. Thank you. This was a good one. I liked it.

Photography: Michael Donovan

Everyone remembers when they met Trixie Mattel.

For me it was sophomore year of college, smoking weed on a shitty futon in 2015 while she got dressed up like flight attendant Barbie, and then in person almost a decade later, while working on PAPER’s cover story with Chappell Roan. Others met her in Chicago and Milwaukee gay clubs, years before she hit the main stage, or on the wildly successful, first-of-its-kind YouTube series UNHhhh with longtime collaborator Katya, or on subsequent seasons of the hit drag television show. The list keeps going: The Bald and the Beautiful, a critically acclaimed Queerty-winning documentary, on tour with Katya, elsewhere on YouTube’s Mattel-ian algorithm and most recently, behind the DJ booth at her globe-trotting dance party, the femininomenon-al Solid Pink Disco.

In the business of drag, there are very few like Trixie Mattel, having been the first of her kind for the YouTube generation of creators and performers. And in the near-decade I’ve been following and covering drag entertainers, all the way back to the first time I stepped foot into World of Wonder’s studios, just about everyone has a story to tell. My tour guide during that profile of a famous drag queen derailed by the pandemic skipped right past everything, cutting a straight line to the studio where “the magic happens” on UNHhhh, as she said. No mind the queen launching a new show I was there to speak with. Queens across “the franchise” speak effusively about her generosity and warmth, despite the humorous thorns. She comes up in conversations I’ve had with friends of hers or peers in the industry or even random artist, all obsessed with her style and wit and ingenuity.

She is, at once, one’s best friend in their phone and a singular titan of the drag industry, a double-edged reputation that is both unbelievable and totally impenetrable. Yet nothing could have prepared me for the immediacy she brought to our first conversation a year ago, a total stranger totally interested in another stranger, in the company of some strangers. I noted, at the time, that she carved an unusual chunk of space in a setting like this to ask about me: where I was, how I was feeling, how my week was going. I was totally disarmed then, as I was now, when we found ourselves a full twenty minutes into our conversation before she paused, laughed, and burst out with “Hello again, by the way, it’s nice to see you.”

As Whitney Houston once said: “It’s not, ‘Move out my way, here I come.’ It’s walking through and saying ‘Hello, how are you? I’m so glad you came. Hi darling, how are you doing? I remember you!’ That’s a diva to me, that’s true divaship.”

Trixie’s on the road again with Solid Pink Disco, having made her way stateside from the Australian leg of the tour. Mattel, somewhat somberly, tells me, “The world is so messed up, but I guess this is the way I contribute, because Katya and I always talk about this: ‘The world is so crazy, and girl, what the fuck are we doing?’” She laughs then, admitting that “escapism matters. Spiritually charging your phone matters. Looking away from the TV for a second matters. Solid Pink Disco … We are shooting people up into space like Katy Perry.”

Solid Pink Disco might feel like escapism, but it’s far from shallow, judging by both the immense effort Mattel has taken to curate it and the way she talks about work at all. “Like anything I do, if I get interested, I fall off the deep end. I have to know everything. I’m probably the youngest person who plays the autoharp, like a crazy person. I don’t just go on Zillow, I open motels, like a crazy person.” DJing, a skill she picked up in the pandemic after a career spent hanging around nightlife personalities, comes from her lifelong love of music. Let alone a career in which she’s thoroughly exceeded the limitations on what drag queens are capable of.

I ask after those early starts at music, from her first studio album Two Birds to her recent remixes of RuPaul’s “Supermodel” and “Looking Good, Feeling Gorgeous.” Did she always feel the boundaries of imposed legitimacy? “All these interviews would be like, ‘Hey, it’s your third album,’ and they ask questions like what you just said about drag music, and how do we start to turn the tide on the way people refer to that. Basically creating a situation where I answer a question about the lack of legitimacy that’s suggested when you say drag music.” She takes a moment to consider this, myself flush, before continuing. “I never know how to answer that question other than, like, listen … I was barefoot playing a guitar halfway up a tree in a trailer park a lot longer than I was doing drag. I don’t know what to tell you!” For her, drag and music are “kind of one in the same. And if you asked me at the time, when I was 13, would I rather be sitting and doing it in a pink dress, I probably would have said yes.”

Perhaps her technical mastery and passion for a complex instrument like the autoharp was instrumental in picking up the finer elements of a DDJ, but her relationship to the music runs much deeper than that. Instead of supplanting the country-driven storytelling of her music, DJing has expanded her relationship to it. Before, she was “using a guitar and my voice to talk, right? To communicate. But with DJing, you have an entire conversation with a room full of people using other people’s songs in almost a collage. That honestly is how drag queens work. Drag at its core, for a lot of us, is collage.”

Solid Pink Disco, which began as an idea at 21 and is a globe-spanning party more than a decade later, has infinitely grown in scope since those living room quarantine mixes. This year, she has “costume changes, wig changes when I’m off stage. There’s visuals of my face lip synching while I quick-change. I feel really proud of it, I think it really delivers.” As Mattel sees it, “If you come for a drag show, there’s plenty of drag. Come to dance? The music’s great. Come to just wear your pink outfit and take pictures of yourself? That’s also fine.”

For more on Solid Pink Disco, Trixie Mattel’s favorite RuPaul songs, and more, read our full conversation below.

Your publicist and I were just talking about how gay people ruin everything, so feel free to jump in with any opinions you might have.

I agree honestly! I’ve been thinking a lot about conservatives, and I’m like, I’m afraid they’re going to make a list and start dragging us off somewhere, but also, I’ll make that list for you. I’ll make that list. We’re gonna do The Hunger Games, I can tell you who you should take, I have inside knowledge.

You’re going to be the deep state informant on gay people.

I know that’s a very dark take on a very sad parallel reality. I think we’re all trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Specifically we were talking about gay people leaking everything, and how the RuPaul’s Drag Race finale used to feel like the Oscars.

When Kennedy and I did AS3, shoutout to Kennedy, we filmed a tie. And then the following season, there was a tie, Monet and Trinity, and they didn’t even film a tie. So they’re on some type of shit that we don’t understand. RuPaul is playing chess.

I just wish she’d come down from the ceiling to “Call Me Mother” like, one more time. That entrance through her mouth at season nine’s finale was the fiercest thing.

Nobody is a bigger fan of RuPaul than me. RuPaul and Amanda LaPore, I would throw myself on the railroad tracks today for either of them, and honestly, the older and wiser I get, my initial superficial enjoyment of RuPaul became a deeper respect and only a peripheral understanding of the gravity of a Black man putting on a blonde wig and dressing like a woman in the ’90s. People throw the word mother around, people are like, “Gypsy Rose Blanchard, mother!” Well, maybe not her.

She’s probably the one person in our lifetime who we can say definitively and literally changed the entire world. The entire world is a different place because of RuPaul.

It’s crazy. I also think with RuPaul, we take everything for granted, and reality TV blossomed so quickly from what it was even 10 years ago, RuPaul’s impact won’t even be understood until probably she’s done. Because we’re all actively eating the meal, we haven’t even had to sit and be like, “Wasn’t that so good? That 30-year-long meal that RuPaul let us eat?”

15 years ago, nobody knew who drag queens were. Literally, that was not a thing the entire world knew about. Her tangible effect on real-life politics, the globe? You could go anywhere in the world and RuPaul is the language we speak now.

Honestly, her ability to cross lines into everything. Everyone has put money down with RuPaul as their horse. Everybody gets something out of it. RuPaul just creates and then goes away until it’s time to create again. I could talk about her forever, I’m obsessed with her.

I was reading one of her books, and was reminded of you in many ways, because Ru has branched out into so many different things throughout her career, and you’ve constantly invented a career for yourself, like her. I don’t think anyone had, besides RuPaul, a career like Trixie Mattel. When you were 24, did you ever see yourself DJing World Pride on a bill with RuPaul of all people?

No, I didn’t. But also, I’ve always thought that DJing was so cool. As a gay person, as a drag queen who barely had besties in other drag queens, I spent a lot of time in the DJ booth in my life. Go up there, have my cocktail, talk to the DJ. Matteo, my DJ partner who does Solid Pink Disco with me on tour, he just turned 50. He said, “Before you started DJing, I DJed shows you were in, and you were one of the only drag queens who would come to the DJ booth to say hi to the DJ.” He was like, “I’d never seen that before.”

When you work in nightclubs, you have DJs breaking really great dance music to you on a nightly basis. For free! You accidentally get your minor in dance music, because DJs are always sharing with you what’s coming, and what other drag queens are doing. Not to mention, back in the day, I did a lot of circuit parties, so it would be like, go to work, hear six hours of music. During COVID, I was like, I miss the “thumpa thumpa.” I was trying to Google songs, because I wanted to put together a playlist of house music that I love, that I miss. I was like, wow, I’m not equipped to do this. So then I started deep diving, and pretty much, like anything I do, if I get interested, I fall off the deep end. I have to know everything. I’m probably the youngest person who plays the autoharp, like a crazy person. I don’t just go on Zillow, I open motels, like a crazy person. I bought a club standard setup and put it in my living room and just dumped, during COVID. Dumped hours and hours, every day, looking for music, skill building, trying to DuoLingo myself. Luckily, I’m pretty tech-savvy, because of YouTube. Obviously my background in music helps. But it took something like COVID for me to have all the time in the world to devote to DJing.

A Trak just played for us at a few Solid Pink Discos, and that was so surreal. I had to almost address the elephant in the room. I had to be like, “Thank you for doing this, also, you’re opening for me, I know that’s probably weird.” He is a world champion turntablist, in his teens! I’m like, “This must be weird for you to open for anybody,” but also, this is a room full of gay people, and if you ask them who should be the headliner, they’ll tell you. So to answer your question, no, I never saw this coming, because I loved playing guitar and I loved lip syncing. I did not ever think I would get to go down that road.

Speaking of guitar, you had such a prolific journey with music before DJing. You have albums and music videos out, have toured the music. Do you feel like DJing co-exists with that? Has it supplanted or enriched it?

I grew up playing guitar because we had one, and because I grew up so remote, we didn’t have piano lessons. Not that we could afford it. I recently just watched a documentary, and I won’t say what artist’s it was, but they were talking about how poor they were, but the documentary was full of video footage of them from like, the ‘60s, from when they were a kid. And I was like, “Okay, I believe that you weren’t rich, but I can tell you, as a poor person, we didn’t have fucking video cameras, especially not in the ‘60s at home.” Yeah, we were actually poor. We were on these programs that they try to take away in schools. If we didn’t have free breakfast and free lunch, I would not have had meals, you know? Like, we were really poor, really, poor. So, guitar came to me because my grandpa played guitar, and it just came so easy. I just loved it. I’ve always loved it. I think I played for 22 years now, crazy! It just came so naturally to me.

And I guess when you’re DJing… my musical relationship used to be using a guitar and my voice to talk, right? To communicate. But with DJing, you have an entire conversation with a room full of people using other people’s songs in almost a collage. That honestly is how drag queens work, I think. Drag at its core, I think for a lot of us, is collage. It’s this artist, this movie, this song, this costume, and we’re trying to tell one thing. And I guess that part of it reminds me so much of when I was 21, you know, using Garageband to make mash ups and shitty lip sync mixes. That part of it reminds me so much of DJing, because you’re using other people’s music to talk to people. I’ve had the idea for Solid Pink Disco since I was 21!

Oh, wow!

I always wanted to throw a party that was all pink. And I just never thought I would be the DJ at that party, but I just always had that word in my mind, “solid pink disco” and RuPaul says you have to let the universities give you stage direction.

What was the impetus to start it now? Was it the DJing, and feeling like, “I can do this now.” Was there anything stopping you beforehand?

When I was younger, I thought it seemed like a big thing to take on, but I just had this dream of disco balls and all pink and everybody wearing pink. Sort of like a Barbie core party for adults that felt really girly. I don’t really believe in the gender system, but just the word girly works for me. And I love My Little Pony and Polly Pocket and Barbie and all that. When I started DJing during COVID, I guess it took me maybe a season of DJing to be like, “All right, I want to start building this.” And the first year, it was basically the first time I’d done like, 90-minute, two-hour sets on a regular basis.

How has it evolved this year, since you started?

This year is so much crazier. Because I also do video, I spent a lot more time this year building all the visuals, putting on green screen suits and recording visuals. There’s this artist in Mexico who built all the 3D models. And then you can tell the ones I made, which are a little more unhinged and crazy. I just had a vision of making it more immersive. Some of the influences this year are like early Heatherette. Something that feels very whimsical, and so girly and gay that it goes back around to feeling overtly masculine, weirdly. I mean, this one’s really a love letter to prissy little princesses, whatever their identity is. It’s the girls who are willing to put on the shitty little tiara and the stacked boots and go thrash around. This is for them. I mean, the world has gotten so crazy, and what I’ve learned from Trixie Motel is: there’s something about an immersive environment that makes people really feel like they have left planet Earth.

People walk into Trixie Motel and just cry, they just cry, and they love it. And with Solid Pink Disco, you walk in and everybody is wearing pink. There’s pink lights, pink visuals. The Go Go’s are in pink. And I really tried hard to create a set that speaks to people who maybe don’t go to dance events all the time. I wanted there to be a through line that felt really familiar and very Trixie. So the first movement of it is really disco and sparkly and cowboy disco fantasy. And the second half of it is this darker, cuntier workout section where we’re jumping rope and exercising. There’s a whole exercise section in drag — psycho! We’re doing jump rope, like it’s crazy.

And it’s a summer tour too, so that’ll go really well with drag and the heat.

No kidding. We started the tour in Australia in February, which is summer there, so we’re just following summer. I guess the last couple years, when I did it, it was mostly one outfit and cool visuals. But not necessarily narrative choices. This year was the first time I was like, “Okay, I’m gonna do quick changes. We’re doing numbers. This time we tour with two dancers who do their own numbers and do numbers with me. This year, there’s these famous, famous openers too. We got Rebecca Black, we got Shea Couleé, A-Trak. I can’t believe some of these producers.

I loved your recent video with Rebecca Black, on that note, who I also profiled earlier this year. Such a good album, and such creative energy about her. It’s exciting to see you two collaborating on this.

It’s also really exciting to see people turn around on her, because I don’t really have the gay bone in my body where we just like, love pop girls and fucking hate them. I don’t really get down like that. There’s this whole event that’s occurring to Katy Perry right now I would never participate in, unless it’s Emilia Perez. I just don’t participate in this cycle of choosing famous women and being like, “Fuck her.”

I want to go back to something you said about the club. I’ve been going out for a long time, now that I’m in my thirties, and it used to be that the club was a third place. Now, more than ever, it feels like people are looking for fantasy when they go out. They want to escape from reality, because the world is so bad. I don’t think when I was 21 going out to shitty gay bars, I was like, “I want to be transported to Narnia.” I wanted shitty tequila and to go home with a guy who was probably going to kill me.

I think we must have been going to the same bars. Like, “I’m gonna put on my 2010s makeup and my Lego eyebrows, I’m gonna put on my Jessica Simpson heels.”

My Jeffree Star beat!

I’ve been thinking about it a lot, actually, because I’m a millennial, and I understand that on the internet, we are the road that everybody stops to piss on at this point. But I’m also like, stay mad. Do you know how much fun we had going out? Do you know how happy we were? Do you know that we drank and fucked like we were gonna die tomorrow? You know that we dressed up like the world was ending? There was this time where it was like, everyone was doing this post-hipster thing. It was like, Beyoncé, Gaga, “Video Phone” era, where everything was the highest heels, gemstones to hell, a lot of makeup. We were kind of doing The Capitol in The Hunger Games.

We all looked like Cosmo, the Queen of Melrose, in bedazzled hats and fur and leather and a pair of panties.

I think that audiences now are more discerning, particularly female audiences. Female audiences really understand that if you like something, you have to support it, or it goes away. So girls, in my experience, will see your tours. The day your tour goes on sale, they’ll buy four tickets and figure out who’s going later. They will start buying an outfit that day. They’ll start rhinestoning something. People are just a little more enlightened now, and they want to support something. So with Solid Pink Disco, I wanted to design something instead of just asking people to come. That’s the magic of it, to me. I’m on the posters, and I’m up there, but it is so much more about the people dressed head to toe in all pink with blonde wigs on. They are there and they’re having a great time. I think mostly because of how they look and how they dress, they self-transport? They’re in a room full of people dressed up at a level they would never dress up. It’s not Halloween, it’s not Pride, and there’s something about the color pink too that’s very audacious and daring and removes you from reality a little bit. I’ve learned that the energy, the vibe, is kind of like “Fuck it, it’s the last night on earth.” It comes from the feeling of people almost being in their drag. People get in their drag and they are not a fucking crossing guard or waitress or whatever. They are the queen of club.com/diva.

I was thinking about something you said during the Chappell Roan cover last year, where I think she was going to Kentuckiana Pride, and she said that these shows in places that aren’t LA or New York, where we’re more jaded about things like gayness or the color pink, to some people, it feels more important to them. Do you feel that energy at your shows, because I’m sure it’s something you’ve experienced touring with Katya.

With Trixie and Katya, I felt a bigger responsibility to live up to the expectation of a diehard Trixie and Katya fan, because the people who come to see me and Katya have been watching us since they were teenagers. A lot of them are now post-college graduates who’ve been watching us since middle school. So I felt like almost every night, we had to live up to a decade of their experience watching us on YouTube. Whereas for Solid Pink Disco, it feels … obviously I make money.

But it feels more like, “This is a dark room, and this show is that moment where you pull the curtains open in the morning for a couple hours.” Because I can’t be responsible for what their life is like right now. I can take a lot of responsibility for very potent escapism at a very reasonable ticket price. It is really gay, without feeling exclusive. It doesn’t feel like corporate pride. We don’t want something that feels branded and we don’t want: “Cell Phone Company presents Your Gay Experience.” But we don’t want something that feels too cool, because gay people have a tendency to feel too fucking cool for their own, too. So I just am really proud of it. I can tell that people have an experience that is different from any other night of the year. It’s different from pride. It’s not running on clockwork.

With Solid Pink Disco, especially this year, my goal was to create something that had a major Trixie flavor with the approach and the look and the songs. But again, it has so little to do with me. I’ve found it very freeing because I’m there, but it’s really the audience’s party. There’s a lot more of them in drag than me, and they all know each other in these towns, and I don’t know them. It really is giving people an opportunity to play a very parallel version of themselves for a night. I mean, people come and they act crazy, they fucking lose their mind, they scream, they piss their pants, they fall out, they faint, they get carried out on stretchers, splits, drunk as hell, they flip out!

There’s something about costumes that has really pervaded culture. Chappell had her themes on tour, Beyoncé and now Lady Gaga are the same. You have to get those uniforms six months in advance. People are looking for a place to be outside themselves.

They are. Pink for me has its own vibration. There’s something about it that is even peripheral to pride. To me pink, because it’s like its own thing, when people do pink, they base their whole jush on it. There’s always that girl who wears pink lips every day, or always has pink hair, whatever. It communicates something. It communicates a willingness to suspend disbelief. It communicates a frivolity, and you want people to know that you’re daring. You want people to know that you’re playing a version of yourself for everyone’s enjoyment.

When I worked at the makeup counter, when people would wear bold lipstick, they really became a different person. Something about pink, especially when you get it on little gay boys or girls, especially high femme, sapphic women at these shows… there’s something very female power about a sea of girls in pink making out. I think we’re making fun of femininity, in a way, with how high femme we’re doing it in the show. It gives people a lot of freedom. Like, let’s all dress like little Polly Pocket sluts and thrash around in it. We’re not going to be reduced to gender. We’re all here together, it is a very open space.

Back to the topic of RuPaul, but specifically her music: I loved your cover of “Looking Good, Feeling Gorgeous.” Off one of my favorite RuPaul albums, Red Hot, which has “Are You Man Enough?” and “Coming Out of Hiding”. Have you always been a fan of the music, or was that something that happened to you slowly?

Even though RuPaul is celebrated, Red Hot came out a number of years after Supermodel.

She makes some …. bold …. creative choices on the album.

Bold, bold choices. But the look and the feel of it, I just love the song. If Dula Peep put this up today, it would be a hit song, I love that song.

So much of RuPaul’s music is like that, though, where I’m like, if it was anyone else, people would respect it, but it’s RuPaul. So there’s a joke element that people associate with it.

Totally. I was using a bootleg acapella from “Supermodel” and I was building this remix, and I started to like it so much. Then I did a gig at the Out 100, and Vincint was there singing, and I walked up and was like, I have this remix of “Supermodel” that I’m working on. And I love you, and I know that you love RuPaul. Would you be interested in perhaps providing an original vocal so I can obtain the licenses required to put it on iTunes and stuff for people to have easier access to it?” So then they did all the vocals for that in under an hour. Their voice is so stupid good. It was supposed to be a bootleg “Supermodel” and then once I had the privilege to bump it, the universe was like, here’s Vincint. You spent the whole day on your computer working on this, and now you’re standing here with Vincint. Why don’t you just ask? The worst they can say is no.

I did this story that was a taxonomy of all her Christmas music, and the amount of people who reached out after — people you’d be surprised by! — who said they went back and listened to her music, and they couldn’t believe nobody ever talked about how good it is. I was like, “I think we do?” Welcome to the club of people with actually good taste who respect RuPaul as an artist.

That Christmas shit! “Hey Sis, It’s Christmas” is amazing. Amazing, amazing. It’s one of the best Christmas songs. “I Just Want to Get to You” is so good.

Oh my god, chills!

“The Realness”? I was just at a show the other day, and that part of “The Realness” that’s just the baseline, in C minor? And the other song that’s in C minor is that one that goes, “Get on up!” I was marrying them together at this gig the other night, and I was like, am I going to have to remix “The Realness” with everyone? I might have to. I am just the RuPaul stalker now.

“Main Event” still gets me on my feet. Makes me feel like I’m 20 again.

The beginning is amazing!

I was going to say, do you think we’ve approached a time where we can abandon the moniker of “drag queen music”, which is a stupid moniker to begin with. Because it assumes it’s not “real music”, or places it outside of music.

You know what’s been amazing, ever since I started working in dance music? Dance music is such an inclusive free for all. Dance music is like that Gaga meme: “Afraid to reference or not reference, shit it out.” Does she say shit it out? Puke it out? Whatever. In dance music you can beg, borrow, steal, regurgitate, mimic, reinvent. That’s kind of the fabric of dance music, that it’s a call and response. We’re all hearing each other, and honoring each other by stacking. Like, if you do this, I’m gonna play this card. But when I was doing quote, unquote, real music, I love playing guitar, and I love singing, and I love songwriting. I mean, before I did drag, I thought I was gonna be Bob Dylan, basically. But I don’t have the hair for it, obviously.

You can just buy the hair.

See, I could get away with it! I love that style of storytelling, but I always felt very, “Well, I’m in drag.” I love playing guitar and singing, and I love drag and then when I put them together, it ended up being a little bit more synergy than I expected, because when you do comedy and then you can play guitar, it’s a really good way to work. I love Bo Burnham. I love Sarah Silverman. There are so many musical comedians that I had as proof that that was very possible. But all these interviews would be like, “Hey, it’s your third album,” and they ask questions like what you just said about drag music, and how do we start to turn the tide on the way people refer to that. Basically creating a situation where I answer a question about the lack of legitimacy that’s suggested when you say drag music.

I never know how to answer that question other than, like, listen, I was barefoot, playing a guitar halfway up a tree in a trailer park a lot longer than I was doing drag. I don’t know what to tell you! For me, it’s one in the same. And if you asked me at the time, when I was 13, would I rather be sitting and doing it in a pink dress, I probably would have said yes. But the great thing about dance music is Honey Dijon existing, and Black trans women, Black gay people basically inventing house music. If you watch a ten minute documentary about house music, you learn that it was invented halfway in Chicago and New York, and Black queer people, like everything else, fucking invented it.

It’s an art form that honestly is very: “Come as you are.” Even though it is very white male male-dominated. But it’s funny, because once you put a drum machine behind your music, and you have a wig on, all those questions don’t exist, they just fall away, it makes a lot more sense. When I play guitar and sing, I feel a lot of gravity to tell a story and really be taken seriously. I felt like it was always an uphill battle to be taken seriously. I would look for a review that didn’t say that they were surprised that it was any good. It would all be like that, which is kind of a compliment, because it means somebody went in expecting nothing and you actually had to meet some expectations of that. You’re better than nothing.

But with dance music, it’s very open. I just did Coachella two weeks ago. Using dance music in drag just feels very literate, people have some amount of literacy for that. They’re not going, okay, it’s a drag queen playing guitar, I don’t get it. It’s not a lot to ask, it’s not a leap, and I guess that works in my favor, developing Solid Pink Disco, because when you see a person in a wig, you do want to party. You put a drag queen DJing anywhere, it becomes an event.

Photography: Gabriel Gastelum

PAPER is heading to Utah this weekend for the annual Kilby Block Party, aka the ultimate indie musicscape of your dreams. Salt Lake City is being blessed with a lineup of some of rock and alternative’s biggest names.

This year, there’s truly something for every generation visiting Kilby Court. It’s fitting, given the festival grounds’ history as the longest-running, all-ages venue. Whether you’re a true old head who listened to Souvlaki before it ever scored a Gregg Araki film, are a subscriber of r/indieheads and had Beach House in your rotation before “Space Song” was even a twinkle in their eye or you’re a member of Gen Z who predicted Frost Children’s recent blow up, this year’s Kilby lineup is one of its most promising to-date. Here’s who PAPER will be watching.

The OGs

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The ’90s birthed some of the greatest pioneers of the indie genre, a select few of whom are featured in Salt Lake this weekend. Before we reach this era, though, we must first highlight a group that got their start in the ’80s. New Order is headlining Thursday night. We’ll be ready to kick the weekend off in a trance, head nodding to their timeless synths and killer keyboards. Also Thursday, Yo La Tengo takes the stage. If you’re looking for something equally as iconic but a bit more lo-fi, this is the set you need to establish the vibes for the following three days.

The oldies mood isn’t going anywhere after day one, though. Friday night has Slowdive slotted for the ultimate shoegaze sound bath and Saturday Weezer is teleporting land-locked Utah to their “Island in the Sun.” Dads everywhere will celebrate, live the weekend of their dreams and return to their offices Monday to talk coworkers’ ears off about how great the sets were. But they’ll make sure to remind them how they’d never compare to when they saw them live in ‘98.

The Modernists

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The meat and potatoes of Kilby’s lineup this year comes from the 2000s-2010s generation of indie music. Arguably, the most populous time for indie acs, representing the moment the genre got its footing and adopted its namesake. Artists got creative, experimenting in the definitionless scene, morphing it into the free-for-all playground we know indie as today.

Beach House is filling Friday night’s headlining spot. The group is currently on a short festival tour in the states, having added some special headlining shows along the way before going across the pond for European dates this summer. They’re the ultimate example of the subdued beauty that the indie genre explores. PAPER will welcome the waves of organ, guitars and drum machines from Beach House Friday. If you want to tire yourself out before their performance, some moshing at Car Seat Headrest alongside cropped- t shirt-wearing, carabiner carriers would be the perfect opportunity. Or if you lean more melancholy, Perfume Genius will be serving all the trippy, tepid feelings from his stunning 2025 release, Glory.

On Saturday, St. Vincent will save us. We’ll be ready for live versions of Forever Howlong tracks at Black Country, New Road. Panda Bear is riding the highs of his shimmering Sinister Gift. The most exciting thing about these established goats of indie is their continual experimentation. They’re all offering new music and new chances to fall in love with their live performances.

The Internet’s Indie

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The true excitement though is for the genre’s freshest faces. George Clanton’s electronic-infused, pop-fueled sounds will light up his crowd. We want to rock out at Sasami, who’s bringing all the metal and industrial sounds that hurt so good. Known for announcing random LA shows via Twitter that make fans spiral, Frost Children is certain to be a ki. And after Wisp’s Coachella set, PAPER’s keen not to miss any future live appearance from her.

The Salt Lake Locals

Part of Kilby’s mission is highlighting local acts. This year, six will make their debut. Levelor is the first to go up, Thursday. Their noisy, shoegazey hooks are instant earworms that we’ll be leaving Utah with. There are more local talents to stick around for through the weekend with Poolhouse and Molotov Dress rounding things out Sunday for the local legends.

The acts at Kilby are exciting to say the least. Forces from every phase of the evolving indie space will make appearances, and PAPER can’t wait to watch. We barely left New York for Coachella, so know that our time in Utah is precious — we wouldn’t spend it on any old lineup. Kilby is proving, once again, that no matter your age, no matter when you were introduced and fell in love with indie and alternative, they’re the great uniter when it comes to summer music festivals.

Photos courtesy of Kilby Block Party

It’s no question that Tate McRae’s got stamina. Watching her pulsate back and forth in her music videos, let alone her live performances, feels like a masterclass in movement. At 21 years old, McRae has emerged as a rare breed of pop girl who believes in sweat equity: she choreographs, she writes, she runs on a treadmill while singing to train for her shows. Over Zoom, McRae is sharp, self-aware and seriously passionate about keeping pop performance alive.

If her precision on stage makes it seem like she’s been doing this all her life, it’s because she has. “I was a very psychotic kid,” she tells PAPER. “I trained 40 hours a week in dancing. I also did rhythmic gymnastics on top of that, and then I would travel on the weekends and dance more and assist at conventions.”

McRae says it with a laugh, but her devotion to the craft is no joke. By 12, she was competing on So You Think You Can Dance; Paula Abdul called her “a gift from God.” That early 2000s-era entertainment machine — the Nigel Lythgoe brand of reality TV judgment, the weekly pressure cookers of live performance — shaped her foundational sense of showmanship.

It’s easy, then, to draw a line between McRae and early-career Britney Spears: both former child stars with serious training and even more serious drive. But McRae isn’t a throwback. She’s something more self-contained, sturdier, savvier and social media-native in a way her forebears never had to be. Born and raised in Calgary, Canada, McRae didn’t have a Mickey Mouse Club. She had YouTube. And from the very beginning, her rise has been intimately entwined with the algorithm.

“My idea of the future kept shifting,” she says. “Around 15, I started getting really into pop culture and wanted to be a backup dancer. And somewhere between 14 and 16, I just felt so misunderstood. That’s when I started writing every day. It became my lifeline.” McRae’s fans have grown up with her in real-time, watching her evolve from precocious teen to bonafide arena act — not through heavily staged PR rollouts, but through phone cameras, late-night covers and diaristic posts.

This is the duality she occupies: raw but polished, accessible but untouchable, a Gen-Z star who knows how to manage her parasocial relationships without being consumed by them. “Creating and making art while seeing yourself so much on the internet is really confusing,” McRae says. “It can interrupt the flow of creating your best work.”

Skeptics once questioned whether McRae could carry the mantle of pop’s next-gen vanguard — a field increasingly shaped by virality over virtuosity. But her case has become more difficult to ignore. She’s a workhorse who’s paid her dues and made good on those childhood pop fantasies, trading training montages for sold-out arenas. “Sometimes I walk into rehearsal and get full-body chills,” she says. “Just knowing I’m going to perform for that many people… it feels like my biggest dream has come to fruition.”

When asked what kind of dessert her music would be, McRae lands on metaphor: “Some kind of chocolate layered cake,” she says. “Something that looks good, has lots of different flavors, and is a little confusing to bite into at first… but then it all makes sense at the end.”

As she embarks on the Miss Possessive world tour — her biggest to date, with stops across Europe and North America — McRae’s vision is sharper than ever. Below, she dives into pop iconography, YouTube rabbit holes and the magic of Dangerous Woman (2016).

How was South America? Was this your first time doing big arenas there?

Yeah, I actually just did all the Lollapaloozas in South America. It was absolutely surreal. I’ve never seen that many people in my life. It was just the loudest crowds I’ve ever heard, it was so cool.

I read that you embody an alter ego, Tatiana, sometimes when you perform. For these huge festivals, are there any other rituals you do to get pumped up before going on stage? Any particular songs you put on to get you in the zone?

Not any specific song. I usually listen to SZA before I go on, because I do my own glam on tour. So I’ll take two hours and do my glam peacefully. And then when I need energy, I’ll go bug the dancers, and we’ll do a little circle and hype each other up. And then I’ll say a little prayer and go on stage.

SZA before going on stage is interesting. So mellow.

Well, it’s just in the more meditative moments, when I’m doing my glam. I feel like if I get too hyped up, I would have way too much adrenaline going on.

I’m very obsessed with how you were on So You Think You Can Dance at 12 years old. The whole Nigel Lythgoe era of reality competition series. It’s very glorious and I respect that about you.

Now that I think about it, 12 is so baby. I felt like I was 22, though, when I was 12.

Really?

I’d been watching So You Think You Can Dance my whole life. So to be on it was one of my first dreams. Honestly, the same zone that I get into as a singer, I would pop into as a dancer, as well — where you just gotta shut off the fact that you’re on live television, and there’s millions of people watching and that you’re being judged. Because I don’t even think a 12-year-old brain can comprehend that, really. It was a really formative experience. Getting to experience that level of pressure at such a young age was really terrifying, but also such a blessing because it really set me up for a lot of things in life. And I felt very lucky to live in LA for a couple months and get to experience that type of life. I was living a dream when I was 12.

You really had a lot of discipline and were willing to pay your dues and be a part of that early-2000s entertainment machine. A lot of budding artists nowadays can’t say that. They don’t know what it’s like to be judged by actual judges on live TV.

Yeah. Even the fact that Paula Abdul was one of the judges. I didn’t even realize how major that was at the time.

I watched your audition and she was like, “You are a gift from God.”

Queen.

Do you ever think about iconography and leaving a legacy like the pop stars from the early 2000s? Does that mess with your head? Or do you not think about it at all?

It depends. I try to create anything that makes me feel fresh and inspired and new whenever I’m creating. As a dancer, you live a million lives. I went from being a ballerina to being hip-hop to being a contemporary dancer to doing ballroom at one point. And as a singer, it’s been fun to see how far I can take things and push things that make me feel excited. That’s the blessing of my job. Now I can take things that I’m really passionate about, and I’m able to have really incredible resources and dancers and choreographers and directors that I work with that can push me in directions I didn’t know were possible.

That’s what creates iconic things: really great people working together and being fully present and engaged on set and feeling the magic come. I strive to do something better than my last project or my last performance, and that’s the headspace I like to stay in.

Is there a pop girl era or album rollout that really affected you growing up? I know you love Ariana.

There are one-off performances of every pop girl that I’ve been obsessed with. I couldn’t just name one cycle, because I look back and watch so many different performances and videos. But I would say Ariana, because that was one of the first times… How old was I when Dangerous Woman came out? I might have been —

That was 2016.

Okay, in 2016 I would have been 12 or 13. I think that’s the first time I really started to stan people and obsess over pop music and make my first-ever music playlists on my phone. That’s why I paid so much attention to Ariana and Taylor at the time, and all the pop girls, because that’s when you get that feeling where you’re like, Oh, I can’t wait to be 17, 18, 19 and do my makeup like this, and maybe release a song like this, and roll something out like this. So I always reference Dangerous Woman because I always thought it was really incredible pop music that felt like it changed my life.

I mean, it changed my life, too. I remember when a snippet of “Into You” leaked on Twitter. I was a freshman in my dorm at NYU, and I just remember listening to it over and over again for like an hour.

Yeah, I didn’t have Twitter or anything. I just went on YouTube and sometimes Instagram. I wasn’t really allowed. But when I did see the a cappella version of Dangerous Woman on YouTube, that was formative for me. Or even when I saw “Hands to Myself” by Selena Gomez. There are certain things that stick out in my mind. Maybe it’s just a young teenage girl who sees things for the first time and is like, Wow, I really want to grow up and be like that.

We were so fed by the Disney girls in the early 2010s. I know you loved Hannah Montana. What was your relationship to consuming media at the time? You said you weren’t always allowed to go on Instagram. Were you on the internet?

Well, I was a very psychotic kid, in a sense. I trained 40 hours a week in dancing. I also did rhythmic gymnastics on top of that, and then I would travel on the weekends and dance more and assist at conventions. A lot of my childhood was spent in the studio, practicing, getting ready for competitions and not on the internet. So whenever I did watch [stuff], I’d catch Disney Channel or music videos or I’d catch pop stars on the internet. But I was really working and grinding.

What’s the most recent YouTube rabbit hole you went on?

I just went down a Beyoncé rabbit hole. I was listening to a Destiny’s Child album and then I started watching old Beyoncé performance videos. There’s this one video where her hair gets stuck in a fan and she just keeps performing like nothing happened. I mean, Beyoncé is such an icon. I don’t even know how she has the stamina to sing and dance like that. I was infatuated. I think I spent a solid four hours watching her videos.

There’s that legend of her running on a treadmill while singing live to train for her shows.

Probably. I mean, it’s such intense stamina. But yeah, I think Beyoncé was my most recent rabbit hole.

How do you keep your stamina up? Do you have a fitness routine or is dancing your full-body workout?

I work out almost every day. It’s honestly funny — I always joke about it, but I have asthma, so I have to train extra hard to make sure I’m not wheezing on stage while I’m dancing. It definitely takes a lot of cardio. I actually have tried the singing on the treadmill thing. I’ll do vocal warmups while walking fast. It’s tough, but it helps. I just try to keep my body healthy and consistent.

When you were 13 or 14, traveling for dance and even teaching — were you already thinking, I want to sing, I want to be a pop star? Or were singing and dancing still separate lanes for you?

I’ve always been super creative and ambitious. So whatever it was, I knew I was going to work my ass off to get there. But honestly, my idea of the future kept shifting. At one point, I wanted to be a ballerina in a company. Then I wanted to move to Europe and join a modern contemporary company. Around 15, I started getting really into pop culture and wanted to be a backup dancer. Then somewhere between 14 and 16, I just felt so misunderstood — maybe because I was such a loner, always dancing, barely seeing people. That’s when I started writing every day. It became my lifeline. That’s when singing clicked and once I started to build a fanbase, I thought, Maybe this is something I could really try and reach for.

Does being a pop star in the age of the algorithm affect you at all? What’s your relationship to fandom and the internet now?

It’s such a love-hate thing because I started on the internet. My fans have grown with me, have stuck by my side and been so loyal since I was 13. They’ve watched me change from being a little nerd in my bedroom writing on my piano to now fulfilling my dreams of performing in arenas. That’s a really crazy arc to follow, so I feel beyond grateful that they’re with me, because without them, I wouldn’t be anything. So there’s that part of the internet that I have the most love for and gratitude for.

But then, creating and writing and making art while seeing yourself so much on the internet is also really confusing, and it can sometimes interrupt the flow of creating your best work. So you do have to keep that boundary for your own sanity — staying off the internet and not looking at opinions of yourself. And then also, keeping your fans close, too, because I cherish them so much.

Yeah, it’s a level of transparency that must be a give-and-take. Fans now have this power that has transformed and shapeshifted the music industry. But that’s also why people feel more connected to you.

I think being a 21-year-old is annoying enough. I feel so confused some days. Bouncing from trying to be an adult to trying to feel confident, trying to feel sure of yourself and also learning who you are and what your tastes are and how to navigate through this industry. It is hard, because looking at yourself online that much isn’t a normal thing for the brain to comprehend. It can be a little stressful. I always feel my best when I’m writing in the studio, when I’m with my dancers and leading with kindness and compassion and feeling like a good person. That always keeps me stable and grounded. Making sure that you know your reality outside of the internet feels stable and good.

I saw that you bought a place in New York. What makes you feel connected to the city?

I moved out to LA when I was 17 years old, so I’ve been living here for five years now, and New York just makes me feel alive. It makes me feel inspired and excited. I love it. It’s the first place I’ve ever bought, so it’s cool.

What’s your favorite place to eat in New York?

This might be basic, but the breakfast spot Sadelle’s is my absolute favorite.

You’re embarking on your first big worldwide arena tour. Were there any arena tours or concerts you saw growing up that shaped you?

I actually didn’t go to a lot of concerts in my life. I think I’ve only been to eight or nine concerts. I remember the first arena tour I ever saw was Justin Bieber’s Purpose world tour, and that was my first concert. From that day, my biggest dream ever was to headline an arena. So this year is pretty surreal for me. Some days, I walk into rehearsal and get full-body chills just knowing that I’m going to perform for that many people. It feels like my biggest dream has come to fruition, which is such a blessing. I feel so, so excited and I literally cannot wait to get on the road.

Did you channel Tatiana on this cover shoot?

100%. The second I snap into a character, I am instantly way more confident. This shoot was definitely more regal and elegant, and it was so fun because we got to tell a story throughout all the shots, which is rare on magazine shoots. It was so fun. We were in this big mansion that was so detailed and beautiful. It was a really cool day, I got to turn into a different person.

Where’s your mind at now? Are there any movies or books that are personally inspiring you?

As of right now, I’ve just been locked into creating this show. I like to have my hand in every aspect of the show, from the visuals to the lighting to the references. Then obviously I have to learn all the choreography for it. As a writer, it’s only natural for me to always be writing little poems every day, or little parts of songs. I think this is the most fun part, when you finish an album and the pressure is finally released and you get to find all this new music. Because sometimes when you’re in the creation process, music can be a little stressful to listen to, and afterwards, it’s such a refreshing feeling hearing music again. It just gives you so much dopamine again. I’m in that phase where I just am enjoying listening to music and taking my time and trying to be as present as possible.

What did you think of the new Ariana? Eternal Sunshine deluxe.

I thought it was unbelievable. She nailed it once again. I mean, she’s an alien.

If your music was a dessert, what would it be?

That’s a hard question. I was about to say panna cotta, but I don’t even know what the fuck a panna cotta is. Okay, I just looked it up. Definitely not panna cotta. I’d say maybe some kind of chocolate layered cake — something that looks good, has lots of different flavors, and is a little confusing to bite into at first, but then it all makes sense at the end.

Perfect answer. Thank you for keeping pop alive.

Photography: Greg Swales
Styling: Chloe and Chanelle
Makeup: Lilly Keys (using Dior Beauty)
Hair: Chad Wood
Nails: Juan Alvear (using Essie)
Props: Lucy Holt

Extras: Elliott and Virgile, Malibu

Photo assistants: Juliet Lambert, Michael Camacho, Ashli Buts, Erick Mendoza
Digitech: Toma Kostygina
Styling assistant: Justin Ramirez
Production assistant: Ricardo Diaz

Editor-in-chief: Justin Moran
Managing editor: Matt Wille
Executive creative producer: Angelina Cantú
Music editor: Erica Campbell
Story: Ivan Guzman
Cover design: Jewel Baek
Publisher: Brian Calle

There’s something timeless about the Upper East Side. Even after all the recent Met Gala chaos, there’s a certain quiet glamour that lingers above 59th Street. And this past week, that feeling found itself within Liz Gillies, who took over the iconic Café Carlyle for an intimate five-night residency.

Following her on-screen roles in Victorious and Dynasty, Liz recently made her return to the stage this past March with a standout performance as Audrey in the off-Broadway revival of Little Shop of Horrors. But this past week at Café Carlyle was different: She wasn’t playing a role — just herself with a microphone, a band and a room of people ready to listen, returning to the stage as Liz.

When Liz reached out asking if I was around to tag along for the week, I didn’t hesitate. I grabbed my camera, hailed a cab and headed uptown to capture the most intimate moments from the show-filled week. What unfolded over the next five nights was something rare: five performances that felt both deeply personal and completely timeless. From pre-show rituals to post-show drinks, The Carlyle became her personal stage.

I arrived at The Carlyle Hotel on Tuesday afternoon and met Liz in her suite to go over the plan for the week as she prepped for opening night. The energy was calm but exciting, opening night always feels like that. She wasn’t nervous, just ready. Liz wore a beautiful black-and-white gown, which she handpicked herself, as she did with all of her looks for the week. In true Liz fashion, she did her own makeup, of course, as she always does.

“I like to keep my entourage small, basically nonexistent, for the exception of my hairstylist and friend Jenn, who’s been doing my hair since the first season of Dynasty” she tells me. And as final touches went on, we ran around the hotel to shoot ahead of call time.

It’s opening night, how does it feel being back at The Carlyle and doing this residency?

I’m so happy to be back. I’m trying to convince them to let me live here so I can just do this forever. I’ll let you know if I’m successful.

What are you most excited for tonight?

I just love being in that room. It’s so beautiful and classic. And tiny! I think I feel most comfortable in an intimate, cabaret setting where I can joke and talk to the audience and play around. It’s harder to do that in a bigger venue. I can’t wait to get in there. Every audience is different so I like to go in with zero expectations and just see where the night takes us.

What can the audience expect from you this week?

Good music and hopefully a few laughs. I really like my set list this year. I hop around genres a lot but I still think it works. Keeps it interesting.

How is this show different from anything you’ve done before?

The Carlyle is a singular experience. I’m not sure there’s anything in the world exactly like it.

As Liz did her final vocal warm-ups, I headed into Café Carlyle and took my seat, ready to experience opening night. The audience buzzed with excitement as they sipped champagne and martinis ahead of Liz taking over the stage. She opened the show with a cover of Nancy Wilson’s arrangement of Sinatra’s “Oh! Look at Me Now,” and suddenly, the room was transported to the charm and glamour of old New York.

Throughout the night, she performed a range of songs honoring icons such as Joni Mitchell, Peggy Lee, Dinah Washington and more. Between numbers, Liz connected with the audience on a personal level, sharing stories, exchanging glances and slipping in a few subtle jokes.

“I’ve never had an espresso martini, are they good?” she pointed out as she asked what everyone was drinking tonight.

As she finished “The Nanny Named Fran,” the theme song from The Nanny, she laughed and said, “My friend was here tonight and he’s younger than me – he didn’t even know what the show was. But I love that song.” I loved it too — so much that I immediately set a reminder to finally watch The Nanny once the week wrapped.

With just a few songs left in the set, Liz invited Little Shop of Horrors cast member Jeremy Kushnier to join her on stage for a duet of “Falling Slowly” from Once, followed by a heartfelt rendition of “Somethin’ Stupid” by Frank and Nancy Sinatra with her co-star Milo Manheim. Having seen them on stage together in Little Shop, it was transformative to experience them in a new light, revealing a side to them we hadn’t seen before.

Liz ended the show with “Is That All There Is” by Peggy Lee, and just like that, opening night came to a close, leaving four more shows to go. As applause filled the room, she made her way down the stage to greet fans and took a moment to connect with friends and family, sharing the magic of the night’s success.

So, opening night is done! What was your favorite moment of the night?

Shocking everyone by singing The Nanny theme song with no warning. And Milo and Jeremy! They ran from Little Shop and threw on suits to come sing with me. So sweet. I love them.

What are you most excited for in the rest of the run?

I’m excited to see how each night shakes out. I know we’re sold out the last few nights so maybe it’ll get a bit rowdy. That’s always fun.

What was it like performing with Milo out of character?

We have such an easy rapport. It felt lovely. He’s wonderful. By the way, I didn’t know I chose a TikTok song for us to sing until you told me! I just know it as the Frank and Nancy duet! I’m so out of touch.

Throughout the rest of the week, show after show, Liz brought the same energy with a few fresh twists: slight changes to the setlist, new looks and surprise guests. Night after night, the audience experienced a new version of the show. Among the special guests were Milo Manheim and Jeremy Kushnier from Little Shop of Horrors, her husband Michael Corcoran and even her father, Dave Gillies.

What did it mean to be able to bring on these special guests to perform with you during this residency?

I love bringing out people to sing with me. Last year, I had my friends Aaron Simon Gross and Graham Phillips from 13 sing with me which was so special. This year, I had my boys from Little Shop. Oh, and my dad! And my husband! Last year, my dad brought the house down with his harmonica solo, so we’re doing it again. I added another song for us to do as well. And I gave my husband a solo because I love hearing him sing this Eric Clapton cover. It’s my show; I can do whatever I want!

If you could have a dream special guest, living or not, who would it be?

It’s a long list, but I have to go with Peggy Lee.

Closing night quickly approached. As Café Carlyle opened its doors for the final show, Liz slipped into a flowy white dress for last look of the week. While final touches were underway, we captured a few quiet moments ahead of the last performance.

I can’t believe it’s already closing night, how do you feel after performing here all week?

I feel great. I can’t believe it’s over either. Went by so quickly. I had a blast.

What was the process in selecting the songs for the set list, and why those songs specifically?

I have a very eclectic taste in music and like to sing a lot of different things so the biggest challenge is finding a way to make them all fit together. I try to make it as seamless as possible, but sometimes there’s a joke to be had when you jump from Julie London to Annie Lennox to The Nanny theme song. It’s wacky, but I love wacky.

Were there any songs you wish you could’ve squeezed into the set list?

It’s pretty packed. I take the first couple nights to see which songs are working and which ones aren’t and adjust my setlist accordingly. I’m not sure if there’s anything else I would’ve added in. I scrutinize over it pretty hard.

What about your own songs? Can we expect an album from you anytime soon?

You never know!

What was it like performing in such an intimate space like Café Carlyle?

It’s perfect. I know I keep saying it, but it’s my favorite. I also love being able to hear people’s commentary and specific laughter. You can’t get that in a big space.

Your friend Ariana Grande was here tonight to support. Do you think we’ll ever get a live rendition of “Give It Up”?

We sang it at the State Farm Arena in 2019! It already happened!

No way, how did I miss that?! Well, if you could’ve sung a song together with her tonight, what would it have been?

We have so many songs we love singing together, but I’m not going to make her sing. I just want her to relax and enjoy the show and heckle me if she wants!

Did the past five nights go as expected?

Yes and no! That’s the beauty of live performing. I welcome the twists and turns. Nothing should go exactly as planned. The unexpected is what makes it fun. Having said that, I am pretty happy with how it went.

If you could describe this week in one word what would it be?

Reinvigorating.

All in all, this week at The Carlyle was something truly special. Across five unforgettable nights, Liz delivered a residency that blended stunning vocals, intimate storytelling, and pure artistry – a series of performances that felt both timeless and entirely her own.

Photography: Vincenzo Dimino